L'DOR VADOR HU KAYAM...
Daven Well, Don't Talk, and Sing Along!
The preceding copyright (c) Lincoln Square Synagogue and Sherwood Goffin
Well. That clears up something I've long suspected. Listening to people lead davening, those who say aloud "Ledor vador ... la'ad kayamet" seem to be people who learned to daven Before Artscroll, while those who say "Al Avoteinu..." were those who learned from Artscroll. This confirms it - the Chaz says outright it is an error in the English Artscroll.
Contra the Chaz, I wonder if it's a Nusach Sfard thing. In the all-Hebrew Nusach Sfard Artscroll, at least the chazan-sized one that I've been using for the past 6 months by the `amud in a local shtibl, I think they do begin at Al Avoseinu.
I checked - yes, the Artscroll NS siddur has the chazan start at Al Avoseinu. Further, I checked with the gabbai, who, like me, grew up Before Artscroll, and asked what he grew up with. As far as he knows, he always started from Al Avoseinu. So now we know - rather than being an error of the siddur printers, it was a Nusach Sfard custom, that leaked into the Artscroll Nusach Ashkenaz, probably because whoever edited that section grew up with Nusach Sfard. Not that siddur printers are innocent of introducing changes in the davening.
3 comments:
I grew up (Nusach Ashkenaz in the US) always hearing the chazan recite from "Ledor vador" until "la`ad kayames" and then again, I believe, from "malkenu melech avoseinu" until "zoolasecha".
In the last decade or so I have seen this change to not reading from ledor until kayames and EITHER ending at "avadecha" (starting from al avoseinu or after) OR not reciting anything aloud until "malkenu melech avoseinu".
I don't recall ever hearing "la`ad kayames" as an ending in Israel.
What is the purpose/source for the chazan reciting specific lines aloud while others not? When did this begin?
When did it become unifom?
What is the purpose in this specific instance?
"al avoseinu" seems to be a new sentence which continues into "al harishonim"
I always figured that the reason for those little "chazzan starts here" indicators was for newbies and bar mitzvah boys since all the old time sidduring never had them. I didn't realize there were rules too!
Sure. They also show up in older machzorim, often with rather different patterns than we're used to today. Usage does shift around.
There are passages that I've seen in some siddurim that seem to want to be recited responsively, but we don't, in, I think, Hodu in the morning. I suppose someone used to do it that way.
Then there are all the piyutim on RH/YK that we say wrong, tacking the first phrase of stanza N+1 onto the end of stanza N. Vechol Maaminim we say entirely backwards - the last half of stanza N plus the first half of stanza N+1. Imru Lelokim, Maaseh Elokeinu - those phrases are supposed to be the BEGINNING of each verse, not the END - it doesn't make sense the way we sing them. You wonder how long that has been going on.
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