tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post2794216286494407366..comments2024-01-04T19:35:00.635-08:00Comments on ThanBook: Yated Appears to Falsify Torah to Attack YCTthanbohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-76551372195464635462007-07-11T20:19:00.000-07:002007-07-11T20:19:00.000-07:00Hey, it's not my letter. But the point stands - p...Hey, it's not my letter. But the point stands - personal struggle with mitzvot that appear to be morally "problematic" has a long history in Jewish tradition.<BR/><BR/>That's not to say that one should, God forbid, reject any such mitzvot, but one's morality is shaped by many things, parents, society, and of course, Torah learning, and there are things that don't appear to fit. So either we pigeonhole them as "things which are difficult, but not particularly relevant to me, so I won't worry about them", or we struggle to fit them into our understanding of the Torah worldview.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-35296788122863974782007-07-11T16:27:00.000-07:002007-07-11T16:27:00.000-07:00dont stretch it by calling r n lamm or r lichtenst...dont stretch it by calling r n lamm or r lichtenstein GIDOLAI OLAMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-74645980976392281512007-03-29T19:52:00.000-07:002007-03-29T19:52:00.000-07:00There's confidence, there's clean speech, and ther...There's confidence, there's clean speech, and there's protecting oneself from unfair libel charges and potential lawsuits.<BR/><BR/>Better to err on the side of caution, no? Esp. since I'm *not* a posek, not a great expert in machshevet yisrael. <BR/><BR/>Now, having seen Rashi and the Gemoro disagreeing with the Yated's claim of what they mean, perhaps someone could bring other sources, rishonim or whatever, who actually do extend the Gemoro's prohibition to mishpatim?<BR/><BR/>Or is it all about tone? In which case, i toned it down, so the tone issue should no longer be at issue.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-74530366737268067842007-03-29T19:13:00.000-07:002007-03-29T19:13:00.000-07:00what is the "hhoq approach"?what is the "hhoq approach"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-78240191220354265432007-03-29T19:11:00.000-07:002007-03-29T19:11:00.000-07:00If you were confident in your position that it was...If you were confident in your position that it was 100% correct then you wouldn't have added the word appears when your were charge as being possibly libelous!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-13343508964405189862007-03-29T18:10:00.000-07:002007-03-29T18:10:00.000-07:00Rabbi Zvi:I feel my approach is sufficiently suppo...Rabbi Zvi:<BR/><BR/>I feel my approach is sufficiently supported by this paragraph from R' Nati Helfgot's letter about the Yated article:<BR/><BR/>R. Linzer’s quote about struggling with difficult mitzvot that challenge our ethical notions and our conception of a just God (a conception that emerges from many parts of the Torah) is a badge of honor. God implanted within us a moral sensibility and did not want us to be morally insensitive or obtuse. Gedolei olam from time and immemorial struggled with difficult mitzvot such as the commandment to obliterate Amalek. Read some of the writings of Rav Lichtenstein in English and in Hebrew or the recent essays by Rabbi Shalom Carmy and Rabbi Norman Lamm in the new volume on “War and Peace in the Jewish Tradition” for any more citations.<BR/><BR/>Complete letter <A HREF="http://indefenseofyct.blogspot.com/2007/03/letter-from-r-nati-helfgot.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-84001068716004782592007-03-29T17:56:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:56:00.000-07:001) Rabbi Zvi:Why must conversation continue on Hir...1) Rabbi Zvi:<BR/><BR/>Why must conversation continue on Hirhurim? Who made him the sole proprietor of YCT discussions? Unless he starts his own thread on what constitutes a normative approach to morality.<BR/><BR/>Continue here - I'd like to get more readers. His thread already has 400+ responses.<BR/><BR/>I'm also taking it to Avodah, you can respond there too. Get some good discussion going.<BR/><BR/>2) Steg: thanx for putting it into different words.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-42790659324424313772007-03-29T17:47:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:47:00.000-07:00approaching mishpatim rationally = struggling to f...approaching <I>mishpatim</I> rationally = struggling to figure them out, since by definition they're supposed to make sense.<BR/><BR/>Just saying "of course they're right" is a <I>hhoq</I> approach, not a <I>mishpatim</I> one.Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-19503191936208642382007-03-29T17:43:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:43:00.000-07:00"Pray tell, where are the norms about how we are t..."Pray tell, where are the norms about how we are to define our morality? Where do concepts such as lifnim mishuras hadin, bnei neviim, etc. that all affect our personal moral stances, come into it?"<BR/><BR/>If you respond to my post on Hirhurim, I will address the issue over there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-84252903009757467432007-03-29T17:27:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:27:00.000-07:00Anonymous:"challenge the rationality" hardly. Aga...Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>"challenge the rationality" hardly. Again. They're rational, they have to be, but that doesn't mean their reasons are immediately apparent.<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Zvi: not normative?<BR/><BR/>Pray tell, where are the norms about how we are to define our morality? Where do concepts such as lifnim mishuras hadin, bnei neviim, etc. that all affect our personal moral stances, come into it?<BR/><BR/>You appear to be talking about legislating hashkafa, an enterprise which has not really caught on.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-77013557952016586252007-03-29T17:23:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:23:00.000-07:00I posted this response to you on Hirhurim as wellI...I posted this response to you on Hirhurim as well<BR/><BR/>I believe that you are standing Rashi on his head. You are taking it as license to question items that are not Chukim, neither Rashi nor any Gemara state that.<BR/><BR/>"We have every right to try to come to terms with the civil and criminal laws, that we find morally difficult."<BR/><BR/>"From where does our morality spring, other than from the Holy One Blessed be He? He gave us a moral sense, and He gave us law, and we have to make the two of them square."<BR/><BR/>These two statements are not reflective of normative Orthodox Jewish thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-50088351632930419622007-03-29T17:10:00.000-07:002007-03-29T17:10:00.000-07:00Maybe not every detail of mishpatim are immediatel...Maybe not every detail of mishpatim are immediately apparent, but the basic reason of a mishpat should be readily apparent or accessible. If not from the obiousness law itself, from the context the law was given or the Oral Law.<BR/><BR/>So, IMHO, to state "to pretend that these are not profound problems or that they are consistent with G-d’s goodness", is to challenge the rationality of laws that have readily available answers. Linzer gives the impression that he is dissatisfied with those answers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-74738176114666876722007-03-29T16:59:00.000-07:002007-03-29T16:59:00.000-07:00You clearly don't understand the "rationalism" of ...You clearly don't understand the "rationalism" of mishpatim. That they're rational means that they <I>can be</I> understood, not necessarily that every detail of them is immediately apparent to be reasonable.<BR/><BR/>Chukim cannot be understood, although the taamei hamitzvot effort (Rambam, RSR Hirsch) would try to ascribe meaning to them (symbolic meaning, if not underlying reasons for the laws to exist).<BR/><BR/>But mishpatim can be understood. And every law has a bit of chok in it, in that it has to be followed, willy nilly.<BR/><BR/>Linzer <I>is</I> approaching them rationally. And rationally, when measured against a contemporary Torah moral sense, they don't make immediate sense. That they're mishpatim means that we have to try to make sense of them.<BR/><BR/>As for libelous, noted and updated.thanbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06197564008203120013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9267923.post-92026961236340840362007-03-29T16:49:00.000-07:002007-03-29T16:49:00.000-07:00You're hurting Linzer more than helping.The Yated ...You're hurting Linzer more than helping.<BR/><BR/>The Yated may have used the Rashi to make a point. Just as Linzer MADE it appear those laws were Chukim by approaching them as "profound problems" that appear inconsistent with "G-d’s goodness" so too Yated did the same. The Yated may even pandering to him by stating: "we have no right to second-guess or question those mitzvos whose reasons are not <I>immediately apparent</I>".<BR/><BR/>Yated said "immediately apparent", not "not apparent". <BR/><BR/>If Linzer approached those laws as mishpatim, then he should have been able to approach those laws rationally, instead of having a problem with them. What you are saying is more devistating for Linzer, in that even for mishpatim, which have rationality, Linzer has a hard time supporting!<BR/><BR/>Linzer gives the impression of a wavering emunah and potential disregard for the laws that he discusses. Linzer's words "the inability of a woman to terminate a failed marriage" will be misused by radical feminists such as JOFA for years to come.<BR/><BR/>I think you should carefully read both Linzer and the Yated. Frankly, this post is foolish and the title "Yated Ne'eman Falsifies Torah to Attack YCT" is libelous.<BR/><BR/>You must really want to help those that are going after Linzer, Weiss, and YCT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com